Conflict Resolution

Michael: Hello, everybody. Today, we are talking on episode number six about conflict. Conflict resolution. How to identify it.

Nicole: Indeed.

Michael: Okay, great. Let's get into it. Okay. I want to talk about the different types of conflict that exist.

Nicole: Great.

Michael: And I didn't know there were so many. But when we were researching this, holy moly.

Nicole: Yeah. We had to narrow the list down, actually. We did, to like five.

Michael: And so these five are not, by any shape, way, form, a list of one conflict is worse than the other.

Nicole: Yeah. It's not ranked or prioritized.

Michael: They are not ranked or prioritized. Yeah. Man, sometimes the most simple words are [inaudible]. And you're there to back me up. Okay. So, Nicole.

Nicole: Yeah?

Michael: When I think about these conflicts, I have a problem.

Nicole: Just the one?

Michael: Yeah. Just because it always comes down to, usually when I think there's a conflict, I want to direct it towards an individual.

Nicole: Like a person?

Michael: Yes. Okay. Aren't individual and a person pretty close to the same thing, or no?

Nicole: Maybe? It could be an individual lamp. I don't know.

Michael: Oh, fair enough. Okay. All right. So, because I get a little frustrated when someone might ask me to do something, even if I'm like, "Hey, give me a list to do," or whatever it is that they're asking me to do, there might be something that's an impossible task or something that I feel I'm not equipped to handle at that moment. Or I don't know that I'm equipped to handle it. So I get frustrated, right? But I get mad at them.

Nicole: The person?

Michael: Yes. Not the lamp.

Nicole: Not the lamp. Sometimes the lamp, maybe.

Michael: So is that appropriate?

Nicole: Can I just pause?

Michael: Yes.

Nicole: Okay. So before we even jump into the types of conflict, I think we should talk about why we're talking about types of conflict.

Michael: Okay. Please do.

Nicole: Right. Because I think some people just think, and maybe we even thought before we started digging into this, conflict is conflict. Like, let's just figure out how to resolve it or how to kind of barrel through it, how to move on, whatever. But what we found is that based off of these different types of conflict, obviously, you can kind of take different methods in order to move through it or resolve it.

And so we're kind of taking the point of view of, maybe when you go see a physician, they want to understand your symptoms so they can make a diagnosis, and then they know the right course of treatment. And so that's kind of how we're looking at conflict as well, is if you can identify the type of conflict, if you can name it, then it may be easier for you to kind of figure out what to do next. So that's why we're kind of breaking things down into categories, and not just saying conflict is conflict.

Michael: Yeah, that makes perfect sense, because I think conflict to me can be a scary word.

Nicole: Yeah, I think to lots of people.

Michael: Right. Well, even when we've had conversations in our relationship, you're like, "All right, there's a conflict," and immediately my guards are up. I'm like, "Oh, no. What did I do?" And it's not anything like that at all.

All right. So, okay, back onto the task conflict. So if someone's asking me something to do, and I am looking at what it is that they're suggesting or talking about, or it's feedback that I've inquired about and I'm not happy with the feedback, I guess, how do I deal with that? Or, more so, not how do I deal with that, but, I guess, how do I deal with that? Because I typically, knowing me, misdirect. My first knee-jerk reaction is to, again, be upset with the person that provided that, even if I asked for them to provide that, right?

Nicole: Yeah. So I think with task conflict, sometimes it can be, we've talked about the "I hate this" list, right? What's the list of things that are really de-energizing for you, or things that you just don't enjoy or really draining for you? So, to me, task conflict can a lot of times come up in those types of situations with the "I hate this" list.

So it can be you've been asked to do something that you think is below your rank or below your level of expertise. Or you think it's something that is actually above your rank, like your boss is asking you to do something that you think is actually their responsibility to do, right? Or, as you said, you're just not really sure how to do this thing. So I think if you can separate the emotion from the conflict, that's where you can start to kind of tease out what is actually at the root of this, right?

Michael: You really want me to remove emotion? Wow.

Nicole: I know, easier said than done, right? But I think one thing that I use a lot, and people laugh at me at this point because I talk about it so much, is RACI. Are you familiar with RACI?

Michael: I don't believe I am, but I feel like when you start talking about it, I'm going to know.

Nicole: Okay. So a lot of times when it comes to a task conflict, I find that creating a RACI is a really good solution, or at least a way to start a conversation to figure out, okay, who's responsible, accountable, who needs to be consulted, and who needs to be informed for each of these tasks.

Michael: RACI.

Nicole: Yeah. Okay, great. Are we loving it?

Michael: I think so.

Nicole: Okay, cool. So it's really kind of figuring out, okay, who's responsible for this? So that's usually who's actually doing the work, right? R and A can sometimes be in conflict with one another, so they're responsible and accountable. Accountable typically ends up being the person who's kind of making that decision. Sometimes the person who's responsible and accountable are the same person, right?

But then when you move on to that, who's consulted, this is before you make a decision or before you move forward, who needs to kind of be in the room. And then informed is like, go ahead and make the decision, but just make sure that you tell this person once you've done it. But sometimes going through a RACI at the beginning of a project, or, honestly, even in the middle of a project when you're freaking out, can be really helpful to just kind of get some clarity about roles and responsibilities.

Michael: Well, and I think it really is a great beginning framework for any conversation or any project that you might be working on, right? Because then you're setting yourself up for success as opposed to, as we all know, setting ourselves up for failure. And that definitely is a way to avoid that conflict, because I know if I don't do something like that, trying to identify the players or the stakeholders or my role and position in that, then I am making a lot of those assumptions. And we all know what that does.

And then when those assumptions of mine are uncommunicated and not met, then there are more parties besides me that are probably just as alienated, which then makes them really ticked off.

Nicole: Yeah, that's right. Well, and I think the big part of that is asking questions. And let's be clear, not everyone has the emotional safety within their role to poke and ask questions, right? So we should just kind of cover that right now, that I understand that that is not a role or a position that everyone is in. But if you can find someone within your organization who you think does kind of provide that emotional safety for you, a mentor, or just someone that you can kind of confide in to be able to bounce some of these things off of...

Michael: Like a thought partner? Like a thought partner. Oh, my goodness.

Nicole: But just to be able to kind of do a gut check there of, hey, here's what happened. Here's an assignment that I received. This feels off to me, or it feels not at the right level, or it feels way too much for my role, or whatever. Just kind of get that gut check, and then you can, again, figure out how to move forward.

Michael: Well, and as a side note, I think it really does touch, if you don't have that ability at work. This is not a plug about having an actual My Thought Partner with us, but it is more so of a plug: find a mentor. And if you don't have that ability within your organization, you should definitely find something outside of your organization, because they will give you typically that unbiased feedback. That is that unemotional approach, because they're not tied close to it. They don't have to deal with the interpersonal politics of that particular organization or families. So then that way they can really just give you a framework to move forward.

Nicole: That's right.

Michael: Okay, great. Well, then that kind of leads into the relationship aspect of it, right? So relationship conflict is huge. And I think you talking about that emotional safety net, that sounds like if you don't have it, you're probably having a relationship conflict.

And that relationship conflict can be with peers around you. It can be with the hierarchy structure, whether you are telling people or asking people to do something, or you're getting that same information back. Oh, my gosh, Nicole. So how in the world, if I felt like, all right, I'm not upset with you or the person, I'm just dealing with these tasks, but this time I am upset with you. Not really, for those out there.

Nicole: Not like me, me.

Michael: Not you. You're the hypothetical version of you that lives in my brain. Okay. How do I deal with that relationship conflict, right? So if I don't have that emotional safety net, and I don't have that external mentor or guidance, what do I do next? What can I do? Is there an option for me?

Nicole: Yeah. Well, I guess it's, first of all, how do you know that that's actually what it is, right? So what are some of those characteristics of a relationship conflict?

Michael: I don't know. That's right.

Nicole: I'm stumped.

Michael: I'm stumped, because it's taken me this long in life to even figure out there are ways to identify those relationship conflicts. So we're going to get to that in the next segment? Yeah. Okay. Let's do it.

All right. And we are back. We had to take a break. We had our own little conflict. It was a bug in the room, and we needed to take care of it. And part of a, what is it? Not a personal conflict. It is a...

Nicole: Relationship conflict?

Michael: Relationship conflict. Part of the relationship conflict was how to deal with that while in the middle of recording. And let me tell you, thanks to the power of audio and video, you didn't even realize it. But we had to go through it.

Nicole: Well, this is actually a really good example of relationship conflict, right? Because how you identify relationship conflict is that two people can kind of experience the same exact thing but come away with totally different responses or reactions or interpretations, or have two totally different ways that they might want to tackle it. So I wanted to stop everything and take care of the insect. And Michael's like, "Push on through."

Michael: Right. Look, and this is a really good insight for you to go watch the videos on YouTube, because I'm sure you can see Nicole's face change during production.

Nicole: I saw it.

Michael: And I'm like, what's going on? And I can feel, because I'm in tune with my partner, I can feel the tension rising. And I was like, what is going on? And so we stopped, and then I realized what was going on, and I'm going, "You can't let distraction stop you."

Nicole: Wow. That is the actual conversation that we just had.

Michael: That was really it.

Nicole: I know. So luckily we do have a strong enough relationship that we made it through that one.

Michael: It might have ended us. Well, I know. Golly. Previous relationships, that would have been the end.

Nicole: I mean, are we?

Michael: For sure. Okay.

Nicole: Whatever. Anyway. So if we translate this to work...

Michael: Yes. Yeah, please.

Nicole: I think it's when you do have those situations with someone that you work with, and it just seems like, gosh, we are never on the same page, or emotionally we're not really feeling the same way about things, or we have totally different reactions or responses or next steps based off of information that we're taking in. And so what the heck do you do with that? Because I think sometimes that feels really insurmountable.

Michael: Yeah, it really does. Well, and I think, too, if you are in tune with the person, right, or you have the ability, again, a lot of this, to me, and this is going to be repeated over and over with so many things that we discuss on the show, is that it is about asking the questions. And so instead of making the decision for somebody else, asking the feedback, like, what is it? What is so important to you that that disruption occurred?

And I think if you're able to get those answered, that you're identifying, again, so a lot of this is almost like a repetitive process. It's asking the question so that you can identify what it is, so that you know what you're really working to resolve, right?

Nicole: Yeah. Well, we talked about this, I think, maybe last time or a few episodes ago, about being genuinely curious. And when you're asking questions of someone, not just asking questions because you're going through the motions, but really being curious and trying to unpack, what is it about this that caused you to have this reaction or to feel this way, when I witnessed this and felt a totally different way? And that can really help to build relationships, too.

So if you're having this relationship conflict, it can help you kind of unpack what that other person is feeling, and maybe unpack for them what you're feeling, right? So that you can at least better understand each other. It doesn't mean you're going to have the same response or a mirrored response moving forward, but at least you have a better understanding of why they may do some of the things that they do or why they react in certain ways.

Michael: Yeah, and I think, too, going back to what you said earlier in the previously interrupted segment, where you mentioned that you may not have that emotional safety in your role. I think if you don't feel comfortable asking those questions, you might start that conversation by actually speaking, again, from the I scenario. Totally, the I statements. "I feel like at this moment we are not aligned in our vision," or, "I feel at this moment that something's off."

And I feel like just saying that, you can really start a conversation, and really what you're doing is you are showing the other person that you're having this conversation with that you're actually open to having. You're kind of being the first to step forward to show that you're going to let your guard down so that you can have a conversation.

So that transparency and that vulnerability might just get you another percent into that person's trust zone, so that you can have a more worthwhile conversation and realize, hey, what do we need to do here as a team moving forward, right? Or what can I do to service and help you, so that we are able to get past this conflict, or to get past this problem? Does that seem fair?

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. I agree. And so I think that also can kind of play into the next type of conflict that we wanted to talk about, which is status conflict.

Michael: Yeah. Big time.

Nicole: Big time. Big time.

Michael: Status conflict. It's all about the power dynamics and the hierarchy, right? And that's really where that comes to. And that will really come after the true segment, next.

Nicole: Oh, the break. The real break.

Michael: The real break. Let's do this.

Nicole: Are you recording?

Michael: I'm recording.

Nicole: Great. Both of us. Our best selves in this moment.

Michael: I'm just having fun.

Hi, welcome back. We are always having fun in between our breaks. We hope you're having fun in your little silence of 10 seconds there that you get to do it. Our little mid-intro. All right, we're back. So we're talking about conflict resolution, the things to identify them. We've already tackled talking about the task conflicts. We've talked about relationship conflicts. And then we are going to tackle into the next three, which are really status conflict, the value conflict, and then the kind of cross-cultural, intercultural conflicts that can exist in our environment.

So when we talk about task conflict, oh, my gosh, we did talk about task conflict. I don't want to. Yeah, we already did it. Status conflict. See, because it's always when someone from a different status than me is asking me to do something. It just gets, I'm like, no, I want to be frustrated with them. But we've talked about identifying the task. But now let's get into that status conflict. Why am I flustered?

Nicole: I don't know. I'm like, let's unpack that for you. What's up?

Michael: What is it that the hypothetical and real version of me gets frustrated when someone of status...

Nicole: Say, talk that all the way through. I'm actually interested in this.

Michael: So status conflict to me is usually, again, so we mentioned it was about a power dynamic. And that power dynamic is typically, I think, when the conflict arises from the person that is receiving that feels on the lower end, or that feels that the power dynamic is not in my favor, I can be instantly abrasive if I'm asked to do something or told to do something.

Nicole: By?

Michael: Somebody of a greater power dynamic to me.

Nicole: Someone in a higher rank.

Michael: Someone in a higher rank. Okay. Someone that has the ability to have more influence or persuasion.

Nicole: This is blowing my mind.

Michael: Why?

Nicole: Because, I mean, because my whole life existence is all about being respectful to, as a kid...

Michael: Oh, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Nicole: [inaudible] This is the difference between us. This is a huge difference between us. Being respectful to my elders, right? When I was a kid, I was definitely raised in that "children are to be seen and not heard" type scenario, right?

Michael: And I was told, question everything.

Nicole: Not my style.

Michael: Okay. Not obedient, question why.

Nicole: Right. And so I also am an independent worker, right? But if someone from a higher rank asks me to do something, I'm going to do it, and I'm not going to do it with a chip on my shoulder, unless it's super unreasonable, because that's just kind of how I'm wired. So it's interesting, and I would almost challenge you to say, I know you're shocked, I'm going to challenge you on something, but is it really the status, or is there something else attached to that?

Michael: Well, that's going to be it for another episode. Because as we're talking about that, what I am thinking about, though, is, I think sometimes it's why the power dynamic I struggle with, right? And in that status conflict, sometimes it's not about, like, I think I'm smarter than the person, but there are times when I might have different skill sets that, there's more experience behind it.

Nicole: Well, and I would say, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would say that you're a generalist, right? You know a lot about a lot of things, whereas some people are really specialists and focus in on one specific thing. And so I think that may be part of your conflict, too, is that people don't always understand the breadth of your skill set and experience. And so you maybe sometimes get a little defensive.

Michael: Sometimes I don't understand the breadth of my skill set.

Nicole: Sure, right. And that is a whole other episode. But you may kind of get a little defensive when people ask you to do things or assign you things, because maybe you feel like they don't recognize the skills that you have or the experience you've had. I don't know.

Michael: So all future clients out there, do know that I do know what I'm doing.

Nicole: Yeah, just know.

Michael: I got it. Just know. I got it. Okay, so then...

Nicole: So, the status conflict. Yeah, I was going to say, I have a couple examples on this one.

Michael: Please do. I just don't want to spend a whole bunch of time on the status conflict, because we do want to get into the value aspect of the approach to that.

Nicole: I mean, obviously it's a touchy subject for you, so you don't want to dive too deep into that.

Michael: Right. You know what, let's not dig my funeral today. Let's let other people learn.

Nicole: So here's what I will say about status conflict. I will disagree a little bit with part of what you said, that it's always the lower-ranked person's problem.

Michael: No, no, for sure. I don't mean that at all.

Nicole: So I think what we should also just kind of have as a blanket statement is that the conflict exists, right? It is not one person's problem. One person is not owning that conflict. If I have a problem with you, we have a conflict, right? It's not my conflict and my problem. So I think that that's important to understand with the status conflict, especially, is that when there is that conflict there, it is the responsibility of all parties involved to try to solve it.

And so, quick anecdote. When I was 22, I got promoted into a management role. I was managing people who were 30 years plus older than me. And let me tell you, you want to talk about chips on shoulders. People were not pleased to have me as their boss. And I had a lot of people call me "boss." And it was obviously meant tongue in cheek, to me. Yeah, it kind of did, right?

So I had one person who was working for me who was running her mouth to everyone who would listen, giving me attitude in front of clients, and it really bothered me. And so I asked her to come in early one day and just sit down and talk. And I said, "Hey, I noticed..." And I just very matter-of-factly laid it out. "I noticed you've been saying some kind of unkind things about me. I've noticed that you've made some snide comments about me in front of clients. Can you talk to me about where I've gone wrong?" I'm like, what did I do?

And it was as simple as I had shifted some of her responsibilities in a way that she didn't like, and she didn't feel confident in the things that I had asked her to start doing. And so she was ticked about it. But she didn't come to me and say, "Nicole, I don't like the way that you've shifted my responsibilities." But getting that out in the open, I was able to kind of move things around, get her back into her comfort zone. We were fine from there on out, right?

And it was a clear status conflict, that she felt like she needed to kind of puff her chest and show how great she was or whatever. But just being able to talk about it really squashed it.

Michael: Okay, so then...

Nicole: It's not always that easy.

Michael: Well, no. And, I guess, to summarize that part of it, too, is really what you mentioned. So when you have those conflicts, yes, it's not just a single-party conflict. It's a multi-party conflict. But it does take somebody to actually have to speak up and address that conflict, right? So in order to get through a status conflict, there will be, and hopefully it is now you, right? You that's listening or watching, because you will have that ability to say, hey, I now know what this is, to step forward and ask. You can even ask, "Hey, is there a conflict here?" That really is it, right?

Nicole: Yeah, right.

Michael: And, lo and behold, it may not work your direction, but at least you're taking the responsibility and the ownership and the accountability behind that.

Nicole: Right. Well, and I think the thing is that you can keep whatever story you have in your head going for as long as you will allow yourself to do that, but you won't actually know the truth until you have that conversation.

And I think the story I was telling myself in that situation was, oh, she's all irritated because she's so much older than me and I'm in a higher rank. And that really wasn't the essence of what it was about. It was that we had not built enough trust for her to come to me and say, "I don't like the work that I'm doing now." But being able to have that conversation, I then didn't have that story in my head anymore either.

Michael: Okay, so then let's get into the values and stuff. So one of the things that you talked about, and maybe this is connected and maybe it's not. So when you talked about the conflict of you are 22 and you now took on this responsibility of having to direct people that were older than you, is there an approach to this where that person who is older than you in that role, there was some sort of value conflict in this fact that they might have felt that they had more experience, that they had...

Nicole: Yeah, and they did, right? And so, to me, there was no question there. And I had plenty to learn from her in different ways. We just had different skill sets. And that's why I was placed in the position I was placed in, is because I had some of those different leadership qualities and ability to operationalize and manage things. So I think it's also addressing that, that we may be in different roles, but there are different reasons for that. But getting back to values...

Michael: No, no, no. It's okay, because then, okay, so when I think about values, I'm thinking then about life experiences, right? What things in my life do I value that make me feel like I have some sort of assumptive authority, or some sort of assumptive role in life? So, in that way, I mean, other times I think about values, right? It can be based on my religious beliefs. It can be based upon...

Nicole: Ethics.

Michael: Your ethics. Or even, like you said, that Nicole does believe in that hierarchy structure, you know? And to this day, you still are very much that path of least resistance, least conflict. You really try to align with all people to get that down, right? That's a strong value of you.

Where I'm the person, I really do want to... It makes me think, if you haven't seen The Fifth Element, Gary Oldman's character in there, and he has this great monologue about without chaos, there cannot be rebuilding and restructuring, right? Like a drill corps sergeant or something like that. And so I think that I want to go in and find as much conflict out there, because it's easier for me, and where I come from, the values that I guess have been instilled through my life, that it's easier to put the pieces together when there are things that are broken, as opposed to, if something's already well-oiled, I'm more challenged with that, right?

Nicole: Yeah. I'm trying to think, what are our animal equivalents? I feel like I'm...

Michael: Tasmanian devil, for sure, is me. Tasmanian devil. I am the Tasmanian devil.

Nicole: Well, I was gardening today, so I'm thinking about all the little earthworms that I found when I was digging things up. And I feel like I'm kind of an earthworm. I will find a little nook, and I'll kind of sneak my way in and will subtly make some changes and move things the direction that I want them to go. Whereas maybe you're more like a groundhog or a mole. Or an anteater. Or it's just like, you see this mound, right? And you're just like, oh, kind of like, let's dig it all up and start over. And, yeah, that's just kind of not my style.

Michael: Okay. So then, but back to values. Well, no, because, okay. So one of the conflict things that I try to avoid in that is I have to try to not impose my value system on other people, right? We talk about equity a lot in our conversations with people and clients. And that is, I have to remind myself again about meeting them at their need, not where I assume that they need me, and to help their business. And I think that is one of the values at deep core, if we think about, if you can remind yourself that you need to meet people where they are at, then that's going to help reduce a lot of these conflicts.

But especially in the value side, because, let's say you're a non-religious person, someone has very deep religious values, and there's a conflict around that, not because you had some sort of religious conversation, but because they ethically and morally feel like something that they're being asked to do, or maybe you're on the receiving end of that, that that is what they truly believe is important to them.

If you meet them and try to understand that, again, we go back to that question asking, you'll have a better understanding, so that you know that they're not necessarily, maybe, imposing that value of their own onto you. They're just being guided by something differently. So you can help alleviate that conflict by, again, meeting them where they are.

Nicole: Yeah. Okay. So, I guess, if you don't understand, how do you identify that that's a conflict? So, I guess, how do you make a distinction between a value conflict versus a relationship conflict, right? Because I feel like they can look very similar, but I think the root of those things is pretty different. So how do you tease those out?

Michael: Well, I mean, I guess this will kind of go into the next thing, right? Cross-cultural. I think, again, where these value conflict and the cross-cultural conflict can be very similar, in the sense that maybe it is something culturally, due to their upbringing, due to their heritage, due to the person's background, that they have a very defined belief system. They have a very defined way of doing business. Again, if you're doing business with other cultures in different countries, there's a very specific approach to each type of interaction that you have.

There's interactions between the different sexes. There's interactions between specific hierarchies in business. There are very specific interactions, which, again, yes, they are relationship-based. But I think that when you are trying to identify it specifically, whether it's value, whether it's relationship, or whether it's cross-cultural, again, I think you have to understand whom it is that you actually had the conflict with.

Nicole: Yeah. Yes, and I think there are maybe two other pieces of it. I think one is sitting with that conflict and thinking about, I don't know, how deep that goes, which sounds kind of silly.

Michael: Well, it's kind of like going back to last episode, which is like, read it before reacting. It's like reading your emotions before you react or respond to it.

Nicole: Totally. Well, but it's like, God, I feel icky about this, right? And so what is the source of the ick? And can you identify that? And how deep-rooted is that? I think when you have relationship conflicts, it can be very surface level of, gosh, they took that in a totally different direction, or they always respond to things in a very different way than I would. Their decision-making process is really different from mine. But to me, a value conflict or a cross-cultural conflict is far more deep-rooted and maybe more, I don't mean to be dramatic, but maybe more distressing in some ways, and creates more inner conflict as well.

Michael: Or, as some people like to say, triggering.

Nicole: Yeah. I mean, we should probably be like...

Michael: Well, of course, yes.

Nicole: To me, triggering is a trigger word, but, you know. So I think it is kind of sitting with it a little bit and unpacking what it is that's bothering you, or understanding how deeply that is bothering the other person or impacting the other person. Or, again, the why. Why is this a thing? So I have a couple.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, I always have. I think we have a few minutes left. Okay. You got time for an anecdote, and then let's wrap this up.

Nicole: So, yeah. So I think one thing is, I actually had this conversation this week with a colleague where I felt really strongly about a path forward with the work that we were doing. At the end of the day, it was not my project, right? I am helping a client move through this particular project. And part of what I said was, "I am bringing my perspective and my personal values to this. Here's how I think you should set this up, and here's the reason why. But at the end of the day, this is your project, and I will honor whatever it is that you want to do moving forward here."

And it wasn't an ethical thing. It was just like, I believe that this is a more impactful, valuable way to do this. And so I think that's one path in this. It's just being able to identify, these are my personal values, and my personal values are influencing the way that I'm working through this right now. So, to me, that's one thing.

I think the other thing is, as we've said 23 times, asking questions. I had, back in a sales role, I had certain clients who would really try to negotiate prices with me. And I was like, "The price is on the paper, dude. We're not doing that here."

Michael: It's like going to McDonald's. "Hey, can I get my Big Mac for 49 cents?"

Nicole: Exactly. And that would always... Get a cheeseburger. It's so funny, because that would always be the comparison I would make. It's like, you don't go to McDonald's and say...

Michael: I do. I don't go to McDonald's, but I will negotiate everything.

Nicole: But the more I understood that, the more I understood that that was a cultural norm, right? That any sort of sales interaction or transaction is an opportunity for negotiation. And so that was something that I had to understand, and not immediately go to frustration or giving attitude, like, "What are you talking about? We don't do that." But to just say, "I understand that you would really like to find a lower price," or, "I understand that you would like to negotiate this. Unfortunately, that's not something that we accommodate."

Michael: You reminded me of a story, too. And I know I told you to wrap it up, but again, you remind me of the story. Same, similar thing. I had a client in the past, an agreed-upon contract for a certain amount of work that was to be done each day. And it was signed, it was done. But that client, at the end of every single day, took me to the side and said, "Michael, so can we talk about this? Is this the best price that you're going to give me?" And I would say, "Mr. X, we already have a signed contract, right? We did it, dude. This is it. We already agreed upon, we negotiated this contract."

But culturally, that was very... And they told me, they said, this is just the way we do business back where I'm from. If I don't do this, he's like, it feels like I'm going against my own grain. But I will tell you, the first two days, I was like, is this person a dum-dum? What's wrong with them?

And then they could see that I was clearly frustrated, and then they took the time to explain it to me. And it made perfect sense, because I was like, oh, okay. I was like, man, you're just beating me up every day. What is going on? He's like, this is just how we do business back home. And I was like, all right, all right. So, yeah, it is interesting that I think about that now.

Nicole: Yeah. Well, and I think maybe to tie it all together...

Michael: With a pretty bow.

Nicole: With a bow, is assume positive intent. We've been talking a lot about conflict. And, I mean, I guess it depends on kind of whether you're an optimist or a pessimist and how you're looking at the world, but...

Michael: Is there ever really a glass? That's what I want to know.

Nicole: Oh, my Lord.

Michael: Is there really a glass holding the water?

Nicole: Okay, anyway. But I think a lot of these things can be alleviated or diminished by assuming positive intent. I truly believe that there are very few people on the planet who genuinely just want to get under your skin, or... I know, I'm married to one of them, but...

Michael: I do, strangely, think that everyone is trying to take advantage of everybody.

Nicole: I don't think that. I think that people are doing their best, right? Yes, they are. And that may not always look the way that you want it to look. That may not always manifest in a way that aligns with your values, or aligns with the way you're feeling that day, or the way that you want to do work. But I do think that most people are doing the best that they can with the resources and experience that they've had. And so if you can...

Michael: Even if you are a Karen or a Chad.

Nicole: Oh, my Lord. Anyway. So I think if you can go into conflicts with that lens as well, even though it's hard, it's really hard when you're having a conflict with someone, I think that makes things a lot easier, and maybe helps you to be willing to talk through a RACI, to use some of your I statements, to genuinely be curious and unpack what's going on with that other person. So hopefully you can move your way through that conflict.

Michael: Yeah, I love it. And I don't really think that there's anything else to say about it. Once again, that's a beautiful bow.

Nicole: Thanks.

Michael: I'm not going to even try to untie it. All right.

Nicole: Let me clear my throat.

Michael: Oh, that was good, actually. Oh, just suck it up. Get the vacuum cleaner.