Michael: Welcome. It is My Thought Partner, and today's episode is about self-care in the workplace. I thought you were going to join me on that. Sorry. All right. I was giving us space for the intro.
Nicole: You were giving us space. Yeah, that's an important part of mental health in the workplace, I think: giving space. So that was a nice unintentional segue. I'm here for it.
Michael: Okay, good.
Nicole: Yeah.
Michael: All right. So we're going to talk about self-care in the workplace. That is a whole big Pandora's box, can of worms. It is a lot of things, right? And I think that before we get too deep into anything, I want to just say, because I've been listening to your feedback per usual, that I came prepared with an agenda. I have bullet points. We have quick segments to make this happen, so this is succinct, and we're not going to have a long kiss goodnight. I mean, we might.
Nicole: I don't think everyone fully understands what the long kiss goodnight concept is.
Michael: Yeah. Well, you got to listen to the other episodes. That just gives you a reason to listen to the other episodes. Okay. So today's agenda: we're going to be talking about beating the Sunday blues. That is not Nicole's favorite this time, but it is the thing she struggles with a lot.
Nicole: Listen, let's just call it at the beginning. I struggle with all of this stuff a lot. I am a tightly wound person. I have been an anxious person since I was a very small person. So all of these things that we're talking about today are near and dear to my heart, and they're things that I personally am constantly working on.
So I would just like to put it out there from the beginning that I have a lot of experience in this space, personal and professional. But this is also not meant to be preachy. These are things that we are all working on, on a regular basis, and I think should all work on, on a regular basis. But anyway, back to your agenda, man, because you made one.
Michael: Look, I know. But look, you're hitting it right on the head, too, because it's also not in place of actual mental health care. These are just simple things that you can do to alleviate some of that stress you might be having in the workspace that are from external influences, and, of course, some of those little internal influences. So beating the Monday blues is part of it.
Nicole: Sunday.
Michael: Well, yeah. Sunday blues. Sorry.
Nicole: Yeah. But Monday motivation.
Michael: So that's going to lead you into that. I'm here for it. Yeah, so Sunday blues, Monday motivation. And then talking about how to handle good leaders, bad leaders, and managing up. Because even if you're the CEO of something, you're still speaking to somebody, right? You're still answering to somebody. Maybe it might be shareholders. It might be investors. But we all have a boss, to some degree. You're my boss.
Nicole: Some days.
Michael: I can't manage up with Nicole, so I don't even try. The other part of that is about—the physical part of this will be getting moving, right? Getting out of your chair, and what things that you can do to help that self-care. Because it's not just all mental. It does have to be physical about this. And then, of course, now, this is my favorite: boundaries and how to say no. How do you say no to the people that are really taking advantage of you? And how do you identify that?
Nicole: My ultimate weakness. Yeah.
Michael: I mean, truth be told, I probably have made this agenda specifically for Nicole.
Nicole: I was going to say, should I just sit back and listen to this whole episode? I have nothing to contribute because I have no skills in any of these areas. I have skills, but all of these things are works in progress for me because I'm a pleaser. I want everyone to be happy, and I want to meet everyone's needs. And I often don't meet my own needs as a result of that, which can wreak havoc on my personal life, can be really rough for my partner and my trusted friends and family, right, who sometimes carry the brunt of my frustration or exhaustion from other parts of life. So this is a good one.
Michael: Okay. So let's dive right into it, right? So if we're talking about beating the Sunday blues, and actually, if you don't know what the Sunday blues are, I didn't even know until you started talking about it.
Nicole: You didn't know until I was like, "I'm having them."
Michael: Well, because I didn't know that there was something defined about the Sunday blues.
Nicole: Well, I call them Sunday scaries.
Michael: Oh, Sunday scaries. Yeah, that's it.
Nicole: Yeah, that's the more appropriate—well, I mean, Sunday blues can also be the thing, right? But it's that growing anxiety on Sunday. Gosh, sometimes it's Sunday late morning into Sunday afternoon. And as you hit Sunday evening, it's just that little ball of nerves in your stomach about what's coming tomorrow, and maybe what you are and aren't prepared to deal with, or just maybe what you're just generally anxious about dealing with, or just dreading going back to work, honestly.
Michael: So technically, that Sunday could be a Sunday for somebody else on a different day of the week. It's just the term of that feeling that you're typically having due to going back to work week.
Nicole: You've been living your best life on the weekend, or your days off, whenever those are, or you've just been able to kind of compartmentalize and not think about all of those work things for whatever time frame. And now you know you're going to have to start thinking about it again.
Michael: You've been putting off those Friday emails that you got at, like, 3 PM, or those texts from your boss that are like, "I need you to look at this before Monday." You've been putting those off.
Nicole: Or it's just that feeling of dread, like I said, that, gosh, that is just not how I want to spend my day tomorrow. And so, depending on, I think, the relationship that you have with your workplace, with your work in general, with your supervisor or manager, or just kind of your general workload, the causes for that can be different. But typically, I think the result, or the way that it manifests, is the same, and just kind of that anxiety.
Michael: Okay, so I didn't know what it was until you mentioned it. So I'm assuming the rest of the world, you're probably a lot smarter than me. You probably actually already know about this. You've probably read 14 articles on the Harvard Review, and you know these things. But if somebody doesn't know about these, what are one or two things that they can identify and go, "Oh, you know what? You're right. I do have that"?
Nicole: Like anxiety in general, or the Sunday scaries?
Michael: Well, the Sunday scaries, which, of course, leads into that.
Nicole: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, I feel like we've covered it somewhat quickly. It is just kind of that feeling of anxiety, or that pit in your stomach, or having those growing feelings of anxiety or worry or, you know, dread might be a bit dramatic, but I'm sure for some people it feels that way, about heading back to work.
Michael: Okay. Well, and then I guess, so here's where I kick in, because Nicole's the positive person, but I'm definitely probably the more motivational person. I can get into your head and be like, "Yeah, rah, rah, rah, let's go." And Nicole is just always like, "Yeah, this is a good thing." And I'm like, "Oh, but it's not a good thing. This is troublesome." So this is going to go into what I think about on Monday motivation.
I've said this before: I love Mondays, because for me, and this is part of this, right, it's the mindset switch for a Monday.
If I'm going into somewhere, to an office or a workspace, or meeting with a client on a Monday, I've got the entire week to work on or figure out what the project is, or what the things that we need to work on and develop, or just, I have an entire week to get things done. Where I think on Friday, I start to have dreads, because I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I don't have any more days left of the week." And the weekend's coming, and I want to go into the weekend and not have to think about what I've got to do.
But I think I'm the weird one, right? In fact, we had a conversation with somebody earlier this morning who was like, "You know, Michael David Davis, you are a unique individual here." Well, I feel like everyone else on a Friday is like, "Yeah, the weekend. Cool. We're getting ready to go to a show. We're going to go see our favorite band. We're going to go to the brewery. We're going to do something."
Nicole: But I get it, right? That you're kind of dreading that maybe you haven't completed everything that you needed to do during the week, right? Or you start to have that—I think for me, on a Friday in the afternoon, it's like, "Oh my gosh, yes, I do still have these things on my list. I haven't done them yet. Okay. Now let's get serious about time blocking," or whatever, right, to kind of finish out the week strong.
But I think there are some other things if you look at that flip side of kind of avoiding the Sunday scaries, or, gosh, it could be the Wednesday night scaries, right? It could be any time when you just feel like you're not totally ready to go back to work the next day. And some strategies that you can use either in those moments when you're feeling that way, or kind of to prep yourself ahead of time, or to recover once you start your Monday motivation.
Michael: Yeah. I think for me, that Monday, the first thing I do, and again, we've said this before, people don't understand that three-hour meditation part for me in a day. But I do just think about that moment. I am just taking that deep breath in through the nose, blowing out through the mouth. We should try it, right?
Nicole: Do you feel better?
Michael: I do. Why didn't you do this with me?
Nicole: Because I feel great already.
Michael: Oh my gosh. See, it's the craziness. But I had to take that moment to be present so that I can actually just remind myself the worst case scenario that something is going to happen is that it doesn't get done. And somebody probably might be upset that it didn't happen. But the great thing is...
Nicole: I'm sweating, literally, listening to you talk about this scenario.
Michael: Well, because...
Nicole: What if it doesn't get done?
Michael: Right. If it doesn't—but again, the worst case scenario is you say, "Hey, you know what? I did not get this finished, but I'm working on it now. This is my top priority at this moment."
Nicole: Okay, but also, that in and of itself is an anxiety management strategy, right? So not only are you managing your stakeholders in that moment by communicating and saying, "Hey, here's the situation," et cetera, but you're also then able to kind of put your own anxiety aside a bit by dealing with it head on. So instead of just sitting there going, "Oh my gosh, I didn't get it done. I didn't get it done. I've got to set this up," right? It's: deal with it.
And you and I have talked about that on a personal level as well, right? Just deal with the thing that is giving you angst, and then you can deal with the consequence instead of creating the story in your head. I mean, that's the thing with me all the time: I love to tell myself stories about what that other person might be thinking, or how they might be feeling, or what they're doing while I'm trying to figure this out, right?
Right. Don't try to make up stories for other people. Get the story from the source, and that way you can alleviate some of that. I think the other thing... Sorry.
Michael: No, go ahead.
Nicole: I think the other thing is kind of figuring out, on the front end and on the back end, what are strategies that you can use to kind of prevent or heal in some of those anxious moments. So I think we've talked about it before, but kind of setting up an action list for yourself for the following day or for the following week before you wrap up that day. That can be super helpful, so that past you has already done you a solid when you walk in on Monday morning and you know what to do to start.
I think one thing that I do sometimes on Sunday nights is I'll just take 30 minutes to look at my calendar for the following day. And that really does help me calm down quite a bit. "Okay, I've got until 10 tomorrow to kind of get myself situated. I don't have a meeting until 10, and then I've got X, Y, and Z to take care of." And so sometimes just kind of reviewing my plan from Friday and looking at the following day can really help to quiet those scaries.
Michael: And that's a great idea. And I think one of the things that we can do in the workforce, whether you are a leader, whether you are just going into the job and getting it done—I think as a leader, you can set yourself up and your staff with success by not putting that kind of really motivation—or not, excuse me, not the motivation, but that scary part of Monday.
Like, "Monday, we're going to come in, and we're going to have a team meeting, and we're going to do this, and we're going to do it like that," where you were actually freaked out about going in on a Monday, because you know that there's so much pressure built up, and you know that you've got to explain what you've already kind of forgot about, right, on Friday.
I actually saw something from another leader on LinkedIn who said that they actually like Friday meetings, because then they can just wrap everything up on the Friday. They get with their teammates. They're going into the weekend free of the mind, knowing that once Monday starts, the next follow-up meeting is going to be that Friday, which I thought: genius. Again, I wouldn't have even thought about that.
Nicole: I love that too. And when I was running stand-ups with a team in a previous role, we always did our stand-ups at 11 AM on Monday, just so that we could have a little bit of time to get in, get back in the groove. You don't have to worry so much about walking in at 9 AM and being ready to go and 100% right out of the gate.
Michael: Yeah, I want to have time to talk about whatever cool show is on, whatever streaming service, and catch up to that, and then get fired up about, "Yeah, the plot line was horrible. It was great." And then I'll dive into work. Notice I didn't say any show, so this show will be relevant all the time. But in case you're wondering, Last of Us is what's popular right now.
All right, but I think if you encourage employees, if you're a leader, to give them that free space, give them that opportunity, then that might alleviate the Sunday scaries to give you a better motivational Monday mindset. And then, again, for yourself, ask for it, right? Just kind of ask, "Hey, can I have some space for this time, so I can prepare for the week, for the asks of things that you might give of me?"
All right, I think that—did we wrap that good? Or well. Did we wrap that well? Yeah. She's a better gift wrapper than I am as well. I'm like, corners, tape, it's done. It's like artwork with this one. Okay, Nicole, let's get to the next one.
Nicole: I think we actually started talking about the next point, which was around leadership and kind of leading teams towards self-care as well, and how you can really ensure that whether you have direct reports, or whether you're working within more of a matrix organization and have a larger peer group, how can you really encourage and support some of those self-care practices within the office, within the virtual workplace, whatever the case may be?
Michael: Yeah. And kind of managing up, or asking for what you want. One of the things I think that will really help you manage your own self-care is you kind of have to demand that respect in your workplace, right? You almost have to be able to build those strong connections with the people around you and build those relationships, so that when you do have an ask, they understand why you have that ask.
If we have bad relationships with people, be it a boss or a coworker, that, of course, is going to add to the Sunday scaries. They're like, "Oh, I'm dreading to have to sit with this person in a meeting, or explain to them, and no matter how great what I have created, they're just going to tear it to pieces." We all work with people like that.
And so I think being able to talk to them and say—you know what, you don't have to say, "I've had enough. I'm done with you. I'm getting over this." But you can definitely ask for that meeting and just say, "What can we do to move forward? What can we do to continue this working relationship, that it won't be harmful to me?" If you're coming from the me space, you're not accusing that person. And maybe they are your frenemy at work. Maybe they are the one doing everything to prevent you from being promoted. But you don't want to empower them by giving them that knowledge.
But at least just say to yourself, say to them, "What can I do to help you, so that we can get over this ickiness that I feel, so that I can be more productive in my role, so that we'll help you be more productive in your role?"
Nicole: Yeah. Well, and let's be clear, it's not always about conflict, right? It isn't always about conflict. I mean, I think you're talking about scenarios where you have a horrible boss, or you have a colleague that you're having conflict with. And that's not always what it's about. It's sometimes just about finding alignment and finding shared language with the people that you work with, so that you can connect and understand each other's needs when it comes to self-care. I think that we all have different thresholds for stress. We all have different coping skills and abilities to kind of navigate the waves that are headed our way in our personal lives and in our work lives.
And you've got to be responsible for navigating that and figuring out what are those best connection points with the people that you work with. And I think that the lovely nugget of what you were just saying is the what's-in-it-for-them aspect. And that works really well, obviously, with clients and other stakeholders that you're working with, but also with your peer group and with your leaders and managers. Understanding what are they hoping to get out of your work? What do they need from you so that they can feel successful? And kind of opening up those pathways of communication can make a really big difference. And I think that's what you were alluding to.
Michael: She's always more succinct and beautiful. She's eloquent with the words. It is like she is a figure skater on ice, and I am the guy who is just the sled racer.
Nicole: I was going to say, are you driving the Zamboni?
Michael: Yeah, I'm the Zamboni, trying to pirouette on the ice with the Zamboni. You definitely, again, hit it on the head, as always. And I think one of the best strategies that I have found success with, and that I think—again, I didn't create these ideas, these are things that I've learned just through time—is that it always starts with finding the common connection, right? If that common connection is absolutely something you cannot find within the workspace, what is it outside the workspace? I always joke around: we're all human. We all breathe the same air, and we all, when we get done with our food, it goes somewhere, right? So those are common.
Nicole: Oh my God. Yeah, I know. Move along.
Michael: Those are common. So when you're able to find something to connect with, then you're able to kind of even get into more of showing the appreciation with that person, right? And definitely, even if it is the hardest thing for you to do, make sure you try to show that appreciation. Because think about it: if it's hard for you to show appreciation to someone that is challenging you, or that is there, that's probably because you're not feeling appreciated yourself, right?
So sometimes one of us has to take that first step forward to be able to say, "You know what? Hey, thanks. I really appreciate what you're trying to do for me. I'm not really getting it, but I want to get there. So can you help me understand what I need to do to make this work?" And I think that really gets a long way, right? So showing that appreciation, being able to seek out those common connections.
And again, more importantly, all this is just because of active listening. When you guys are actually talking with people, or when you are having those conversations, make sure you're engaged. Because if you're not engaged, what happens? You're losing interest. They're losing interest. And they're like, "You're just full of B.S., and I want to get this wrapped up."
Nicole: Well, and I would say most people—not all people—a lot of people do really like to talk. And they especially like to talk about themselves. So I think it is important to engage those active listening skills, to make sure that you're visually engaged. You're nodding. You're making eye contact. Sometimes that can be challenging virtually, right? Making those good listening noises. Asking questions about what they've just said. Being able to rephrase back to the person what they said to check for understanding.
I think the other thing attached to this is that you can learn and navigate over time who those folks are that you can also then share back some of those things. I think we've all had that experience where you think that you've made that mutual connection with someone, and then all of a sudden something gets kind of turned against you, or something gets used against you later. I think those are those times that you just continue to listen.
I know I had a colleague where I thought we were really tight friends. This was way back in the day, back in the early 20s. I thought we were...
Michael: 1920?
Nicole: Yeah, cute. I thought we were really good friends. And all of a sudden, some of those little personal nuggets that I had shared at work kind of got put back against me. And so I learned that that was a relationship where I really just needed to listen. And so when we came in on Monday and were kind of sharing, like you said, "Oh, what happened this weekend? What did you watch?" buh, buh, buh, I asked a lot of questions, and I did not volunteer a lot of information.
And that really helped me in that relationship. And I had established trust from that person, because I was so engaged and asked so many questions and all of those things. But then I didn't have to make myself vulnerable to someone who had already proven to not be a great ally when it came down to it.
Michael: Yeah. And again, this is not new information. Dale Carnegie, with his book How to Win Friends and Influence People, that's probably one of the tenets that you see over and over again, because people like to talk about themselves almost all the time. I'm definitely one of those humans. I try to practice the whole—I almost said two eyes, one mouth. That's not it. Two ears, one mouth: listen more, speak less. And it does serve well.
Nicole: Let's say that all the way through. So you have two ears and one mouth for a reason, because you should listen twice as much as you speak.
Michael: This is why I love you. It just works so well.
Nicole: But I just wanted to pause on that for a second, because everyone may not know that reference.
Michael: Fair enough.
Nicole: But it is a good one. I think the one over N rule is also good. So you think about how many people are sitting in a meeting, or how many people are in a room. If you have four people in that meeting, you should plan on speaking one fourth of the time, right? So one over N is one over however many people are there. I think a lot of people also totally cruise by that rule. And we all know those people, right, that will dominate a conversation.
Personally, I do like to talk, but I like to sit back and listen and really understand how people think, and then insert myself kind of thoughtfully. We all know people that are not like that. So I think if we can generally have that one over N rule, it kind of helps those meetings and conversations go a bit more smoothly and have a more equitable share of the conversation.
Michael: Well, and again, that goes back to the mantra I've lived by for so long, which is: confidence, not dominance. And I have always tended to speak a lot sometimes in rooms, because I feel like I'm trying to make up for a void that I may not get to. Again, as you know, Nicole is much more succinct and more eloquent, and she's just so much more wordsmithy than I am.
And I like to tell stories, and I like to ramble, and I like to make these really weird connections that don't tend to make sense with most people. But in the end it does, but it takes me an hour to get to that, right? When Nicole can do that in 10 minutes.
So I think—and we take this away from us and out of ourselves and into the leaders that we work with—I think leaders, if you're out there and you're listening, or you are that person, you need to set up that encouragement in the workspace so that everybody has the ability to build relationships with their coworkers, right? Opening the door to each person. Don't put them in their own little silos. Don't keep them separated.
I know it's hard, even if a lot of us are doing remote work. We all have Zoom fatigue, or some sort of meetings fatigue, Teams fatigue. But in those things, try to have meetings that are outside of work-related events, so that you can be connected and that you can get with each other, and that you can learn, again, that ultimately we are just human beings that need and thrive for positive relationships in our lives. And I think that gives a really good jumpstart into giving you such a good mental health state in your workforce environment.
Nicole: Yeah. Or I would say even build that into the agenda of meetings. You know, that the first five minutes, we all know we're going to share information. We're going to have a casual check-in or catch-up at the beginning of a meeting. Or we'll do that at the end of the meeting if we have time, right?
But I think establishing that that's what you're going to do—let's be clear, there's nothing more annoying to me than when I think we're coming to a meeting and we're getting right to business, and people just kind of ramble on and on about random things forever. But if it's intentional, if it's "this is what we're doing as our team, because we want to continue to build our team camaraderie and our connections to one another," that to me has a different purpose, and then a different feeling about it as well.
Michael: And it really works well when you're trying to end a podcast as well. If you have a direct message to end it, then your wife is happy with you. That being said, we're going to come back the second half, and we're going to dive deeper into the physicality of your self-care and how that will improve the workspace. And then also, again, my favorite part: saying no, saying no, saying no, saying no. Let's do this.
Nicole: Are you recording?
Michael: I'm recording.
Nicole: Great. Both of us, our best selves in this moment.
Michael: I'm just having fun. Welcome back. This is the second half. And I am just practicing what I preach, Nicole. That's what I'm doing. And if you're not able to see me, because this is the auditory experience, I am rolling my...
Nicole: Consider yourself lucky. How about that?
Michael: I mean, look, some people might say this is how this guy gets his wonderful hair to stand so tall. You know, this is—is this the secret? Yes.
Nicole: No, it's just genetics, I think.
Michael: I mean, and product, right? It is product.
Nicole: Product does help. Wicked blowout.
Michael: Wicked blowout. Yeah. Look, all right, the physicality of the ability to give yourself some self-care in your workspace starts with movement.
Nicole: Do you feel so much better?
Michael: Yeah. I'm like, "Oh, man." Yeah, my neck is good, and my shoulders are good.
Nicole: I'm so happy for you.
Michael: Yeah. Oh my gosh, tangent real quick, only because it is relevant. I started doing this upper body strength training, and I thought, "Let me take it easy. I'm going to do this beginner level stuff," because...
Nicole: Where is this going?
Michael: I need to ease into it. But man, oh man, the beginner stuff was—it's kicking my bottom. Five-pound weights, and a lot of this rapid movement, and I am sore. I just noticed that with my neck rolling around. So my neck rolling around actually just eased that tension I had moving around such weights for—wow, I don't know how come I'm so—I don't know what happened to me. But anyway, that being said, I'm taking care of myself outside of the work environment, which helps me translate that inside of the work environment.
Nicole: I would love to call that a full circle moment, but I'm not really sure that's what happened there.
Michael: Again, I was struggling.
Nicole: I feel like that was just a humble brag that you're working out.
Michael: Yeah, but five-pound weights.
Nicole: Who's humbly bragging about five-pound weights? Fair enough.
Michael: Not you. Now, if I say 50-pound weights, then that's—different story. Yeah. Okay. But it is about being physical in the workspace, and how can you be physical in the workspace, especially if you're tied to...
Nicole: Can you stop saying "physical in the workspace"?
Michael: You don't think that is... That's... Look.
Nicole: I'm seeing Olivia Newton-John with her—but there was obviously an undertone to that video, right? I mean, in that song. Let's stop saying "let's get physical in the workspace," because that feels like a lawsuit, harassment, et cetera.
Michael: I'm not talking about the movie 9 to 5 with Dolly Parton or anything like that.
Nicole: Okay.
Michael: But, Dabney Coleman.
Nicole: So maybe—okay. Right. So maybe let's clarify what we're talking about here.
Michael: Please help me out on here.
Nicole: Oh, okay. So I'll do it. Yeah, we'll be here for another half hour. So we're just talking about incorporating movement into your day, whether it's an interesting neck roll, whether it's just getting up and going for a walk, just a couple of ideas to keep yourself moving. Because, yes, we are all living far more sedentary lives than we ever have before. Part of that is obviously due to the fact that a lot of us are working in offices or are working remotely, et cetera. So what are ways that you can do that and ensure that you have the opportunity for movement and physical wellness to help impact your mental wellness and your self-care throughout the workday?
Michael: Yeah. Well, if you're time blocking—okay, maybe you're not time blocking, but if you know that you're about to have a meeting, I think by default mechanism, a lot of people are like, "Oh my gosh, I have to get up. I need to use the restroom, and I've got to do this before I get ready." That is movement, but that is not intentional movement. So I want to be clear, too, that this is intentional physical movement to actually bring back your...
Nicole: You're saying bio breaks don't count as movement?
Michael: It counts as movement.
Nicole: Then I'm not moving all day.
Michael: Yeah. Well, right. This is where we're getting into the self-care part of it, right? This is where I feel like you can be struggling a little bit. So it is about the self-care. So self-care, ultimately, you have to have the intent and the identification of it happening. If you're doing this on a default, and this is part of what you do, it's not really that, right? Does that make sense?
Nicole: I mean, it does.
Michael: Okay. So if you're going to get up, though, and use the restroom, then incorporate for 30 seconds some stretching, right? You can just bend over, try to touch your toes. Now, don't do this in the restroom. Someone might think you're weird. Maybe you can do it in the restroom. I don't know. You have your own little restroom at home.
But if you're just standing up, you're getting back to the desk, or you're getting up from the desk, stretch, right? Take the actual moment. Again, breathe with intention, so that you are present and that you are refocusing your mind. You're giving your mind the relaxation. This is just as much, almost, if not more, for your mind than it is your physical body.
Nicole: Okay. But I'm going to push you and say that just because you don't—so I hear what you're saying, and I agree with you-ish that there is value in putting intention behind your movement. But I also think there's value in having sneaky movement as well, right?
Michael: Wait. So we can't say "let's get physical in the workspace," but we can say...
Nicole: Yes, we can say "sneaky movement."
Michael: That sounds dirty.
Nicole: I think sneaky movement is fine. So sneaky movement is instead of having—relax.
Michael: My hands are above the table.
Nicole: Instead of having a Zoom with your manager, saying, "Hey, can I call you on the phone instead?" and plugging in your headphones, your earbuds, or your pods or whatever, right? And going for a walk, or even going for walks around your house, or, you know, asking, "Can we do a walking meeting today instead?" And so you're walking. Maybe you bring your phone with you so you can take notes in an app or something like that. But to me, yes, I'm not taking a moment just to kind of decompress, but I know that all those little things are kind of going into my movement bank for the day, right? And that's better than doing nothing.
Michael: Yeah. I really like that. But I will push you back.
Nicole: I mean, I already got the push. It's fine.
Michael: Okay, but because you said it—you had the ask, and you said, "Can we have a walking meeting?" So you were putting the intent there. And so your intention was to physically get to doing something, right?
Nicole: I guess I'm just saying that not everyone has the liberty or the flexibility to be like, "Oh, I'm going to take 10 minutes for myself and do deep breathing and stretch and bop, bop, bop." So if you don't have the privilege or flexibility to do that within your workday, are there some other permissions that you can ask, or ways that you can kind of sneak some of that in? Because that physical movement and that reset is good for your mind. And that's the whole point.
Yes, there is a physical component here that we're trying to take care of, but it's also, you know, you cannot—you physically can, but you should not sit at your desk and work, work, work, work, work for hours straight, because your productivity goes down. The quality of your work decreases kind of the longer you go without one of those breaks.
Michael: Yeah. And we definitely talked about this with the technology and tools episode, where, again, we use things like Pomodoro, which is just a little timer that's in the—it's an extension of Chrome. Ultimately, the method is 25 minutes of focused work, five minutes off. You do that four times, and then the long break is a 15-minute break, right?
And so if you're not taking those breaks—because I know we both tend to do this, and I will actually cheat the system sometimes. I'm not being sneaky at all. I'm actually robbing myself of that mental health, or that good clarity for me, because I'm like, "Oh, let me just—I just need to finish this. It's only going to take me two more minutes."
Nicole: "I'm not going to do this break. I'm just going to keep working through." And it actually becomes an issue. And your quality of work does go down when you do that.
Michael: Well, and I find myself, typically by two or three—and this has been this way my entire life, this is also why I've had to incorporate adding the physicality into my workspace—because two or three o'clock, I am toast. I am zoned out. It is not even that I'm intentionally being disinterested. I have just lost all mental capacity at that point in the afternoon.
Nicole: Can I just tell you, though, I think that we're hardwired that way as kids, because if you think about it, that's typically around the time that school gets out. And those are our formative years. This is totally my own silly little theory, but...
Michael: But you're not wrong.
Nicole: But for so many years of our lives, that's our cycle, right? You push, push, push early in the morning, you go through the afternoon, and then you're free, right? And so you think about so many things that kind of make up your identity. A lot of those things are things that you experienced, or were really passionate or involved in, when you were a kid or an adolescent. So I think that there is part of that there.
It was always really hard for me. I started off as a classroom teacher, and then I transitioned into the after-school tutoring space. Man, I was used to two or three o'clock, and then I was like, "Whew, I can relax a little bit." But guess what? When you work with kids for tutoring, that's all after school.
So that's when your day really kicks into gear, when you've got to really be energized, is when you're seeing those kids after school. So that was always a challenge for me, and I had to always do something physical right before the kids got there, so that I could kind of get the blood pumping again and get excited, so they were excited about the work we were about to do.
Michael: And thank goodness for children, because the energy that they would bring to the table, right?
Nicole: Yeah, they're awesome.
Michael: They're like, "Oh my gosh, so happy to see you." And you're like, "Yes, yes." It was like being filled. There's that appreciation. They were appreciating you, and you're just like...
Nicole: I mean, look, it depends. Some folks are not excited about doing more tutoring after school, but, you know.
Michael: Yeah, I think that's really finding that space that works, right? And I think, again, if we're going to continue to tie this into leaders and things that are out there for employees, again, give employees and your team space to do this. In fact, if this is a stand-up meeting or something like that, going with what Nicole was saying earlier, incorporate it into the meeting. Take a minute or two minutes in this meeting and have a stand-up stretch. If you're doing Zoom calls, or if you're doing, again, some sort of video thing—hey, everyone, before you got the agenda, send out those agendas. It's working, by the way. We're so on time. This is great.
Get the people to understand, "We're going to take two minutes. Stand up. Breathe. Do some silly shakeouts." First of all, this is going to break any tensions. This is going to break any ice. This is just going to—you're all on an even playing field.
And I'm sorry, if there's any executives out there that are saying, "I'm not going to stand in a room with a bunch of mergers and acquisitions or finance people," or just anybody that you feel is so important, I'm going to call phooey on you, because you go out and golf. A lot of people are out there golfing. That's the way you're burning that energy, and you're making these meetings happen and occur. So in the workspace environment, you can do the same thing and just be a little silly.
Nicole: I 100% agree. And let me tell you, there have been so many times that I have either come directly from another meeting—and I work from home, right? Or a lot of the folks that I work with are also working from home or working remotely, and they'll come to a meeting and say, "Oh, so sorry, I just signed off from another meeting," et cetera.
Yes, we're not hoofing it from boardroom to boardroom or conference room to whatever space anymore. But it's still exhausting to do that mental switch of, "Okay, I was talking about this for the last hour, and now I need to stop that and think about what I'm going to do for this next hour and this next meeting."
I cannot tell you how many times I have said, "Does anyone just need a bio break? Does anyone need a wiggle? Does anyone just want to turn off their camera for five minutes and eat your lunch while I'm talking to you?" And every single time I have done that, I get this wave of appreciation, because we don't do that. We don't give people the opportunity. And so no one has ever been like, "Oh, that's ridiculous."
Michael: Yeah, they're sneaky that they try to turn off their camera, and then you can hear, "Oh, we didn't turn off your mic, Bob. I can hear you smacking on your whatever."
Nicole: But that's okay. We're humans. You're allowed to eat.
Michael: But you shouldn't have to be sneaky about it.
Nicole: You shouldn't have to be sneaky about it. But when you give someone permission to turn off their camera so they can eat, eat. Eat your lunch. We're people.
Michael: Just make sure you're muting, because there's some noises that should not be heard over Zoom.
Nicole: Oh my God.
Michael: It happens.
Nicole: I know, but you're missing my point.
Michael: Okay, go for it.
Nicole: I'm sorry. The point is, we are people. We are humans. You are allowed to eat and make whatever eating noises you need to make. Take care of your body, and that will help you take care of your mind.
Michael: Done, done. Well, all I'm going to add—no, I'm not going to add. You added enough. Nourishment. Just make sure that you're—it sounds silly—hydrate, because I think we forget about adding water, because you're not doing the physical part of life. You're just sitting around a lot. You still need to be hydrated. You still need to be drinking your water and then have snacks throughout the day. Yeah. Great.
Nicole: Great.
Michael: Perfect. Can we now?
Nicole: No.
Michael: Ay. If she had that type of energy and the ability to say that.
Nicole: I know. What a different life I would live.
Michael: Oh my gosh.
Nicole: Can you imagine? Can you imagine?
Michael: Would we be married, though, if you said no? I mean, would you have said no?
Nicole: Don't even send me in that spiral. I have.
Michael: Oh my gosh.
Nicole: I would have said no.
Michael: Wait, to me?
Nicole: If I felt like I needed to.
Michael: Oh, okay. Not like because you were—you didn't say no.
Nicole: No, I wasn't coerced into this marriage. Oh, okay. Is that what you're asking me?
Michael: Yeah.
Nicole: No. Okay. No, no, no.
Michael: Because I see how you get coerced in other things.
Nicole: I know. Coercion feels a little strong, but...
Michael: It feels mischievous. Or bad intention.
Nicole: Devious. Yeah. But, you know, I'm tenderhearted. I'm—what else? What else can we say?
Michael: Oh my gosh.
Nicole: I'm empathic.
Michael: And you really do—you care so much about whom you work with and how they're involved, and you think about all the parties. And again, many of us are like this. Most people, I feel like, do not have negative intentions towards you, right? Or towards the person that they're saying something about. I think we have to remind ourselves that we are not, unfortunately, the star of the show all the time, right? We are not center stage. And so I get to take a little bit of this narcissism that I have—we all have it to a degree—and remind myself that it's not about me.
So that being said, when you are being told no, right, if you're asking for something, and someone tells you no, it's okay. Don't take it personal. I know that's hard to say. And I'm sure you're going to tell me that saying to yourself to not take it personal is not mentally healthy. But what would you say?
Nicole: So I think you bring that back around to what we were talking about earlier, and asking questions, being an active listener, and unpacking the no, right? And this is actually not where I thought we were going with this conversation, but let's do it. So I think we're going to talk about both sides of that, right? When you hear no, how do you handle that? And then how to say no. I can hear no. I'm okay with that part. It's saying no to other people that I struggle with.
But I think when you get a no—rejection is hard. I don't think anyone rolls around in it and is like, "This feels great," right? But it is understanding to help clear your own mind of all of those stories and all of those what-ifs, right? Or the why, the unknown why. Sometimes you're not going to get the answer, and you got to deal with that. But when you do get a no, especially from someone that you have a relationship with, I think it's perfectly acceptable to try to unpack that.
So, "Can you tell me a little bit more around what led up to that decision, or what are the factors that you're thinking about or considering when you're passing on this proposal," or whatever. And that can be with a client that you're trying to sell something to. That can be requesting a raise or a promotion from your boss. That can be looking to interview at a new organization. But really getting to the bottom of that can help clear a lot of things out of your own mind, instead of, like I said, you kind of making up the story when you don't actually know the whole story yet.
Michael: Yeah. And oh my gosh, that is so wonderful, in the sense too, that it's not just taking no for an answer, right? We've all heard that. Taking no for an answer, and then finding out the solution for that. It is—I think I forget that. I forget when—now, I will tell you, there are people that do like no, and that's salespeople, because you have a decision that's finally said. Then it's over, right? You know, like, "Oh my gosh, we're not in that indecisive zone anymore." Totally.
Nicole: Yeah. Sometimes a no is just as good as a—a lot of times, a no is just as good as a yes, right? Awesome. A no is so good. I know. Because then it's like, "Okay, I don't have to keep reaching out and pestering this person and all of that. I can focus my attention on the people who might still get to yes." So I would also say, if you have a salesperson bugging you, don't feel guilty about telling them no.
Michael: Tell them no.
Nicole: Because that will make their lives easier.
Michael: And strangely enough, when people come to the door, Nicole will ask them questions, and then I have to—I don't know why I have to be the mean guy. She can do it so well.
But yeah, all that being said, going back to what you were talking about, though, with the unpacking of it, I think what's really cool about the unpacking is that it is a skill set within yourself that, when you start having that question, this will also help you remove some of that ambiguity that you have in your brain about why the answer is no. You will actually probably find out it wasn't related to you. And then you're going, "Oh, wow. All right. That was great."
Nicole: Yeah. Well, and look, then you know what to do with that information, right? When you don't know the answer, you can just spiral. Trust me, I live there a lot of times, right? But when you know the answer, then you can either say, "Okay, that had nothing to do with me, and so I don't need to have that on my list of worries anymore," or it had everything to do with me, and it's something that's under my control, and I can actually work on making that better for the next time this comes up.
Michael: Okay, Nicole, how do you say no, though, to somebody else, if they are saying, "I need you to get this done Friday night"?
Nicole: Okay. So let's be real. It is rarely that. That is rarely what happens, for me at least. It's rarely that someone says, "I need you to do A, B, C, all the way through Z." That's not what happens.
Because I'm an empath, because responsibility is one of my top five strengths when we're talking about StrengthsFinder, to me, I want to step in and help other people. That's how I operate. And if I feel like something is within my ability, I will say, "I can help with that. Let me look into it. I'll figure it out." Because I also am good at just figuring stuff out. I'm a master Googler. I'm like a Google ninja, right? I can find the answer, and I can find a solution.
Michael: And you don't say no.
Nicole: And you don't allow that no.
Michael: So you'll unpack that and find those things.
Nicole: Yeah. So it's partially that I overcommit and overvolunteer out of a sense of helping and supporting others. But I often do that to my own detriment.
Michael: Yeah. If I were to draw a caricature of Nicole and what you're saying, it would be...
Nicole: I'd have a great big head.
Michael: No, no, no. But you would have a big tray full of all these cakes. It makes me think of a children's program show that I remember watching, and this was—the chef would come out with all these pastries and cakes.
Nicole: That sounds great.
Michael: And he was trying to make his way down the stairs, and you would see that the tray would teeter, and he would...
Nicole: Oh, it's like The Cat in the Hat, with the goldfish on the head, and balancing on the ball and the umbrella. And yes, that is often what I feel like.
Michael: Yeah. So you're spinning plates and all those things, right? We can metaphor this to the end of the world. But okay. So I'm not going to give you advice, because I've learned you have to ask for permission. So this is not unsolicited advice to you, Nicole.
Nicole: Are you open to feedback? That's the question.
Michael: Well, I'm just going to let our audience know, so that way it's not directed at you.
Nicole: But you could practice now.
Michael: Indirect. Okay.
Nicole: And you could say, "Audience, are you open to feedback?"
Michael: Are you open to feedback? Did you hear that? I heard some yeses out there. Okay. So I imagine in your world, or in the world of somebody who is also just as much willing to say yes—because, again, I think we often overcommit ourselves because we do know that we can get it done. And we also feel like if we overcommit, or if we are saying yes to a lot of things, that we are going to be seen as the person that gets things done, which then I'm going to be the first to be recognized for promotion, because I was saying yes to everything, or I was getting things done.
But what happens? The majority of people—three out of five dentists, what have you—cannot efficiently complete the things that you need to get done. Or worse, you are then removing all these things that we talked about with self-care, and you're putting yourself in such mental strain and such a very tizzy—is not in any type of way a perfect word—but the anxiety that you have now created for yourself. Because I feel like this is self-created for a lot of people.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, and I think the other piece—so there's the internal piece of what you create within yourself when you're not able to set boundaries and say no to things. But there's also the precedent that you've set within your peer group, or with your supervisor, or within your organization, that you will do anything. And while there is value in the hustle, and there is value in people seeing your hustle, you also walk the line of being devalued when you will just kind of do anything and step in and swoop.
And especially, I would say, when you swoop without acknowledging the swoop, right? When you step in and just kind of take care of something without making it known that you've done that, you're then also undermining yourself, because no one knows that there was a hole there that you were able to fill, or that there was an issue that you were able to prevent becoming a problem, because you just swooped in and did it. So there are a lot of those places where it's not just about saying no or not being able to say no, but it's not always saying yes, I guess, or not always just stepping in, in order to make things easier for everyone else.
Michael: So how do you say no? And I feel like the way to say no, again, has to come from your perspective. You have to assertively step up and just say, "I am not able to do this." That's a start, but the person that's hearing that's probably going to say, "Well, that's too bad. I want you to do it anyway." What you need to be able to do is not only do you say no, that you're not able to, but come to the table with suggestions and alternatives to what you can turn that into a yes with.
"So I'm not able to do this right now, because at this moment I have X, Y, and Z on my plate, but I will be finished with this by this time frame. So at that point, if this is still a priority for you to get done, I will start that at that moment." So you're saying yes, but you're delaying that yes.
And I think, going to your point, Nicole, what you were saying is that if you create not just the boundary, but if you create that ability to say, "I cannot do this right now," that gap that you normally might be saying yes to, that you're trying to fill, all of a sudden now might be recognized by that person or that organization, and go, "Oh, we've noticed now that there really is a missing need here, and we should probably find a way to get that filled." It's not by one person saying yes to everything, but there's actually a different situation here. There's a deeper problem here.
Nicole: Yeah. Well, and I would also offer an alternative to that. Yes, you can say, "I'll be able to get to that on X date." I think it's also saying, "Okay, so here are the things that I'm focused on right now, based on our last conversation or based on what the client has asked for. Which of these do you suggest I deprioritize in order to insert this new item?"
Michael: Yeah. That's strong. That's really strong.
Nicole: Because it creates a conversation, right? And it's not being dismissive. It's being thoughtful about the work that you have on your plate, but it's engaging that other person in a conversation and gives you insight into how they think about things, right? Because you may have placed your own values and priorities onto a situation. I literally had a conversation yesterday where the person I was speaking with said, "I had never thought about it like that." She had kind of dismissed a piece of this initiative that we were working on together. And I said, "Well, if we think about scale, which is what we've all set as a priority, this is actually a really important piece."
And because this is a person who is just—she's working very closely with me to kind of get things done on this list, it took her a second to zoom back out and go, "Oh my gosh, you're right. This is really a big part of the strategy." So I think stopping people and having the conversation is powerful. It's not always pushing back, but it's inviting that person to give you insight and a better understanding of how you should be looking at it as well.
Michael: And look, before we wrap this up, let's be honest with ourselves. This is not easy, right? It also has to be a two-way street. If you have been in this role, or you've been doing something your entire life, and you've always been the yes person, that you walk in on Monday, you're now feeling motivated. You're doing all these things. You've been doing a little bit of exercising at your desk, and now you're pumped up, you're ready to go. And you're like, "Hey, look, I'm not capable of doing this right now." You will probably get some pushback, or some weird looks on your face, but remember, that's okay.
And if you want to blame us, you can say, "I was listening to My Thought Partner, and they gave me the ability to feel like I could come talk to you and say, 'Hey, this is an issue.'" Then let them listen to the podcast, and maybe they'll get it too. But ultimately, just remember that change is good, right? And change is not easy, but it's the repetition of doing it, and setting that expectation consistently, is where you will find the ability to become more at ease with yourself, right? And you'll become more peaceful. And again, check it out. I'm going to wrap it up.
Nicole: Oh, man, I wanted to say something.
Michael: Oh, go for it. Do it. Yeah, something to say.
Nicole: Okay. So the only thing I wanted to say is that this is kind of going back to what we said in the time blocking conversation, around: don't feel like you have to do it all. Don't feel like you have to take on all of these things and implement them all at once, because you won't do it well, right? Change is hard. And so if you're going to try starting to set some better boundaries, or trying to start incorporating more movement, or whatever these things are for your own personal self-care, do one little thing at a time.
For me personally, I overcommit all the time. I overcommit, and I am a pleaser in all aspects of my life. That doesn't start and stop at work. So I say yes to too many projects at work. I say yes to too many things in my personal life and my volunteer roles, right? It's just how I'm built.
So for me to walk in on Monday and say, "No, not doing it," is not going to happen, and is also not going to make me feel good about what I'm doing, and it doesn't make me feel true to who I am. So I think, if that's helpful at all, I just wanted to share that little piece of that: be aware of who you are and yourself, and try to take some of these tips a little bit at a time to incorporate into your life.
Michael: Excellent. Well said. We'll catch you next week. We are, we are, we are, we are, we are, we are, we are.
Nicole: We are.
Michael: The youth of a generation. Oh, it wasn't there. Youth of a nation.
Nicole: Yeah.
Michael: Oh, dang it. Oh, what is it?
Nicole: It's quite a noise.
Michael: It should be. It's loud. It was like a clapper, but with my hand, which I guess it is a clapper.
